Why I need new parrot bird cages
| Well this Christmas was a bit of a surprise for me. And has caused me to realize that I need some new parrot bird cages. And I think this picture shows why? See why my parrots need some new bird cages? (I do want to note that if you look closely, my foot is in this My beautiful wife Sally and I had talked about getting a puppy around the middle of January... but she surprised me this year with a little bundle of Joy we now call Bauer. Our 8 week old Golden Retriever Puppy. Luckily I've been doing my homework when it comes to picking out some new bird cages for our parrots, as I new we'd be needing a bird cage soon, just not this soon. So today I'm ordering a new parrot bird cage from Cages By Design. It's a great company that has recently been featured on the mammoth hit TV show, "Extreme Home Makeovers" and is really starting to come on the seen as a premier builder of parrot bird cages. And I think the main reason they're doing so well is because they don't just offer bars and food holders. They have actually created bird cages that solve parrot's behavior problems. These parrot bird cages come with fully installed 'Full Spectrum' lighting, which has been proven to increase vitamin K production in indoor parrots who don't get natural sunlight. Because windows filter out the light, and leave our parrots little bodies starving for what nature intended -- sunlight. And in case you don't read all my newsletters and already know this... 'full spectrum' lighting has been proven to decrease feather plucking. And Cages By Design is the first company to preinstall full spectrum lighting into a parrots bird cage in a way that looks beautiful, instead of clunky. Plus their parrot bird cages also come with automatic bathing systems, that can be set on a timer to give your parrot a bath on a regular basis. But I'd like to ask you a favor... I'm wanting to know if this company treats it's customers right before I start recommending their cages to everyone. So If you're at all interested in a new bird cage for your parrot, or at least interested in adding some better features to your parrot bird cages, then I'd like to ask you to go over and sign up to have CagesByDesign send you one of their full color catalog chalked full of all their parrot bird cages. And tell me how they treat you? And I'll be sure to post some new pictures of the parrot bird cages I purchase, and show you some of their cool features if the company can deliver like they promise -- which I hope they can. Because more parrot's need to be living in bird cages like these. I'll keep you posted on how I like my parrots new bird cage! ... and here's some more pictures of Bauer |






26 Comments:
Chet, with all respect - I've always enjoyed your products and newsletters -
but I disagree with you here. You got a DOG? with your birds?! And now the
solution is *new cages* for your birds?! Because, you're very right - they
NEED to stay in their cages when the dog is around, just like in the
picture. I"ve heard 2 stories of playful parrots being accidentally killed
by playful dogs.
I don't think that picture is funny at all - I think it is selfish and
unfair to your birds (birds who you have profitted from). They get stuck in
cages more often due to a big wandering dog. Good fun for them.
If they can't be together, and it's true they can't, then
Why not cage the dog? Couldn't do that, could you? Well then how is it any
more natural or fair to cage a bird, born with wings, than a dog?
Your update, gushing about this cute puppy, who will grow up to be a big
dog, upset me. When you buy or adopt a needy, sentient, intelligent being
like a parrot, you OWE him. You owe him interaction, training, etc., as you
know more than anyone, but you also owe him a safe environment, and owe him the position of importance in the house. New cute puppy? Better get bigger cages for the birds - they'll need to be in their cages more often, to keep them safe. Your glib tone is offensive to the parrots as well: "we got a new novelty! Parrots out of the way" you seem to be implying. This is why people shouldn't buy parrots - they get bored with them and then disregard them when something cuter or more interesting comes along.
I sure hope you have a big enough house/yard to allow the big dog dog that this puppy becomes out of the house for most of the day, so those poor parrots aren't banished to their cages because of your new novelty. I think you blew it this time, both in getting a dog, and in
your proposed solution to the problem of the dog interacting with the parrots
- imprison the parrots!
I also hope you dont' keep that poor parrot's cage on the floor. YOu know
how vulnerable parrots feel when they are down low like that, not to mention
when a big predator (in their eyes) is staring at them. Not cute at all. The
parrot, if my impression is correct, looks upset and trying to escape.
Yours sincerely,
Michele and Humphrey (a cage free parrot, most of the time)
By
Anonymous, at 12:14 PM
CHET, YOUR LITTLE PUPPY IS SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO PRECIOUS! I LOVE PUPPIES, AND KITTYS, MY PIONUS PARROT, SERPICO. I JUST LOVE ALL ANIMALS! YOUR PUPPY IS JUST SO SCHWEET!!
TAKE CARE, JANICE
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Anonymous, at 1:00 PM
That's unfair. That's like saying someone with cats can't have dogs. I have four dogs, three cats, one parrot, and I am babysitting two teils. There are no issues in allowing the birds out with the dogs OR cats. The teils were cage bound when they arrived but they are getting better and at this point only come out if they can sit on the largest dog's back. I don't get it either but it works for them and the dog certainly doesn't care. I can't allow the teils out with my grey as she HATES other birds but she loves the dogs and cats, especially the dog that is "hers". I certainly don't leave them unsupervised together or allow the dogs to bounce and play with her as that is just foolish but they get along fine. The cats could care less about her after training that taught them ignoring her got them goodies. At most they come up and give her a quick sniff before going back to their usual routine. It does take some effort on an owner's part to create a safe and happy environment. Obedience training is very important for things to work out well and positive reinforcement for all animals involved is a must. If someone isn't willing to make this effort then you are right that they shouldn't mix birds (or any prey animal really) with predator type animals. But for someone who can and will put in the time and effort, it can be a happy environment for all involved.
Erica
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Anonymous, at 1:07 PM
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
By
Anonymous, at 1:11 PM
While it is true that some people should not add other animals to the mix of birds they own...it is ridiculous to think that that holds true for everyone! Some people can actually balance the dynamics of their household to incorporate a few different species of living creatures.
Chet did the right thing by choosing a puppy rather than an older dog. Not that an older dog could not learn but it is a bit harder sometimes. The puppy will learn that the birds are part of his "pack". They can learn to live in complete harmony and peace.
I'm sure that Chet has done his research and is in complete control of this situation. Just because he is looking into better housing for his feathered friends, it does not mean he will be banishing them to a life inside their cage.
How silly to think that someone who has taught us all a thing or two about bird behavior will not step up to the plate and give his new sweet puppy the same wonderful life the rest of his "flock" has!
Best wishes to you, Chet! Good luck with your newest addition!
Your friends,
Laura...who shares a house with my husband, two Alaskan Malamutes, four cats, a Lovebird, a Rose-breasted Goffin Cockatoo and way too many fish!
By
Anonymous, at 1:30 PM
Congratulations! Bauer is adorable! I sure hope he fits in well with the rest of the family!
I'm looking very forward to hearing comments about those cages & how you like it. I've seen them advertised often (have one of their catalogues) & have always thought they look great - but FAR out of my price range I'm afraid. Tho, I am needing a new cage soon too & would maybe give them a second thought if they were worth it.
Certainly there is some means of ventilation in those cages.
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Cathy, at 1:41 PM
It's always interesting to see how some people can take even the cutest things and the first thing that comes to mind, is to write a nasty post about it on my blog.
Geesh...
And thanks to some of you standing up for me. You're right, it's perfectly OK, to have a dog raised with birds. Kim bear, one of our behavior specialists who moderates our forums, who happens to be a certified avian behavior specialists has dogs too.
And I've always had dogs with our birds, just never told anyone cuz it didn't seem relevant.
Also, what you're looking at in the picture with the dog looking at "george", my senegal, is actually a supervised training session.
We're training him to be calm with the birds. We've started to introduce him to them slowly, and he's gently sniffed the bird's on multiple occaisons under CLOSE supervision.
We'd gotten so good at it with my folks dog, that the parrots will actually ride on the dog's back without any incident.
Maybe I'll even create some free videos and tips for people for raising puppies who are well adjusted to other members of the household. As I'm sure there are a TON of dog owners who also own parrots that could get use out of it.
Just thought I'd clear that up for a few people.
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Chet Womach, at 1:53 PM
Chet, I can sure understand why you needed a new cage. I actually bought my cage for my Conure, Honey Marie from her breeder. Lynn keeps cages on hand and offers them for sale with her birds. She also made a cage full of toys for Honey and had her already getting used to her cage when I drove from one side of Ohio to the other to get her. Honey's cage is on a stand and you can imagine my surprize along with Honey when the cat decided that she wanted to sleep on top of Honey's cage. It's all good, they are best friends now. Good Luck in your search. Kathy
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Kathy, at 2:18 PM
Chet, Bauer is very cute! Congrats on your newest addition. Its very unfortunate that people feel that they need to post negative things about your new puppy on your blog. The point of your blog entry was about new cages not new puppies. Anyway....I have a cages by design cage for my igauna and I LOVE it!! I did have a few problems initially after installation, but customer service was great and the problems were taken care of in a timely manner. I can't wait to see pictures of your new cages! I would love to get a cages by design cage for my quaker, but I will have to save awhile to afford another one. :) Take care. Courtney
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Anonymous, at 2:30 PM
Chet, that's a great idea! Alot of people need help teaching their dogs/puppies and cats/kittens to live with birds. Most people would have said that my blk/tan GSD could not live with my cats and birds. Actually many did say that. She had a horrible home before coming to me at seventeen months. She was running the streets all the time to survive and likely eating cats, rodents, birds, and possibly small dogs. She is now my "nursemaid" and mothers all of my animals including my six month old kitten I brought home at eight weeks (you should see the cute pictures!). Not bad for the dog that tried to eat the first cat she saw! I tell everyone that all it takes is a little love, understanding, and some basic training to make a happy home. If someone isn't willing to do that then of course it won't work out. But for me, things couldn't be better and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Erica
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Anonymous, at 5:38 PM
Hi Chet,
Welcome to your new addition to your family! He's adorable! I sure can relate with you, as I too have a newish puppy (9 months old) that lives in the same home with a pair of Caiques, pair of African Greys, a pair of Amazons and a Lovebird. My puppy a Bichon Havanese is small, about 10 pounds and will remain this size - she was 3 pounds when I got her at three months old. I introduced her to my caiques and they played some, but one day my female caique flew onto my puppy's back (this was while I was watching them) and frightened my puppy. They now visit each other both being held, but I think they all respect one another and know not to take advantage of one another. My birds have their own bird room, but my puppy has a large playpen area where she stays when me or my husband need to go out. My African Greys talk to my puppy and keep her company, as their rooms are ajoining. My big birds don't come out with my puppy but they do talk to one another between the bars. The bird room has a baby gate that is there permantely so my puppy can't go in there unsupervised. I know so many people that have both birds and dogs and even cats and all live very nicely under one roof.
My best to you and know you made the right choice - as the birdies are part of the flock and your new puppy is part of the pack - and you are all Noah's Ark!
Happy New Year,
Libby
Danville, California
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Libby Ha, at 6:16 PM
Love the pup. He looks like such a sweetie. I also have dogs and birds. I also purchased a cage from Cages by Design and have been very happy with it. I couldn't afford the special lighting or misting systems but the cages are great as you can basically design them to your needs, if your first thoughts don't turn out quite right you can order more panels or rearange the ones you have until you get thubgs just right. I had no problems with the company.
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Anonymous, at 7:16 AM
Hello Chet,
I happen to have a cage from cages by design for my husbands iguana's. We've had a pretty good experience with them when purchasing this cage. We actually started out with a 4x4x6 and then enlaged as his little family grew to a 8x4x6 they take up a lot of room! To be perfectly honest however I wouldn't recommend one to bird owners just yet as the design on the front doors are still a bit week and my macaw can open the doors to let the iguanas out. Plus it didn't take to long for my rottie to learn how to open them. I myself use, island cages they are well built and easy to clean. You also get your choise of playtop or dome top and inside or outside feeders.(www.featherfantasy.com) my dogs have not been able to penitrate these cages and they are on wheels and movable. Another problem I found with the cages by design cages is that if you put the wheel base on them you can not stand in them to clean them out and with out the wheel base they are pretty much stuck in one spot. I don't know about you but my birds can really trash the in side of their cages and I have had to literally pull the pans and grates out of them soak them in the tub while I stand in side the cage to get all the fruit and veggies off the inside of the bars. as the bars on the design cages are smaller I would think that will make them a lot harder to get the stuff from between the bars. In my opion the cages are great for reptiles but I feel they still need some improvment before using them for our feathered friends. As a multi-pet owner my cages have been put to the test several times by birds, dogs and grandkids. my guys feel totally at home and safe in these cages. to the point I have to worry more about the dogs losing an ear or nose than my birds being hurt.
Good luck with your decision.
Teri
in Illinois
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Anonymous, at 8:41 AM
Chet,
Sorry but I disagree that you should update the parrot cages, lift them from the floor is the first must, the second being that the puppy should have area's that are out of bounds to him (i.e. the room where the birds are kept)
I have an African Grey and 5 Adult Rottweilers; they all have a very healthy respect for the bird.
All animals have a place in the family unit and your new puppy is at the bottom of the list, the sooner he knows this the happier the family nuclei.
By
Anonymous, at 10:46 AM
Chet, I hope you're not referring to my post as being 'nasty' - I was just voicing my opinion, as I am a STRONG defender of the rights of parrots.
To everyone else - my problem was NOT that you got a dog, per se - but that your solution to the obvious problems that this might cause was to consider caging solutions for the parrots. It's true, I don't think you should have added a dog (especially one who will grow up so big) to a parrot flock you've already committed to) but that is my opinion. Tell me why I'm wrong. I know personally of two parrots killed by playful dogs, accidentally.
My perspective is that the parrots were there first.
I'd like you to tell me what part of the comment I made was "nasty".
You have very strong opinions about how parrots should be trained, and I have bought your products. I should think you would accept someone else's perspective and comments - instead of calling them 'nasty' - explain how I"m wrong. You do not respond to 'alternative' opinions?
The whole post got up my nose because of the jokey tone and messages - look at my new addition - better deal with these parrots I already have! Better get them better cages, as they sure will be in there more often!
I volunteer at a parrot shelter in England, and know first hand how many parrots are bought on a whim, then discarded when the novelty wears off. I do not suggest that you will do this with your parrots, but you are a very strong voice in the parrot world - you have many many people listening to you. The underlying message is: get stronger and tougher cages. I disagree - I think when you get a parrot, you have made a committment to make him somewhat the center of your home. Not something to be put in a tougher prison when you get something cuter.
Once again, I want to stress that my post had no name calling, no insults, no profanity - just disagreement and passionate defense of the rights of pet parrots. How is this nasty?
As for the other comment writers, I'm sure they all have big dogs and parrots, co-existing happily. But just once let the bird land on the friendly dog the wrong way and 'spook' it, and the bird will have the same fate as the Grey owned by a cab driver I know - the dog investigated with his mouth, as dogs do. This big tough man, ten years later, is still crying over the loss of his dear Grey. If only he hadn't let the dogs interact with the bird (they did happily for 3 years before this incident, by the way)> The other incident I heard was similiar.
Chet, I am really disappointed you are so wrapped up in your new puppy that you will not accept a differing opinion on what's best for parrots. For me, the best is not imprisoning them unnecessarily when something else has caught my fancy, because I made a committment to my bird, first.
I'm kind of disappointed at your response, because I thought that your whole 'thing' was about learning about parrots, including debate and exchange of ideas. Apparently, you only take on board opinions from fawning 'fans', not those who disagree. Please tell me this is wrong.
Michele
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Anonymous, at 11:04 AM
Also, I hope that Senegal is not caged on the floor. He looks terrified. I know not to allow parrots higher than my head, as they become superior and agressive; but down on the floor, especially with that big furry predator staring at him - this parrot is frightened and uncomfortable.
Michele
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Anonymous, at 11:08 AM
We'd gotten so good at it with my folks dog, that the parrots will actually ride on the dog's back without any incident.
MY friend the cab driver, mentioned in the post 2 above, did the same thing for 3 years, happily. Then suddenly, completely out of character, the dog turned around and bit the Grey in the neck.
No matter how long the dog and parrots interact, it could happen. Is it worth it? Depends how much you cherish your parrots, I guess.
I do not think that a family can't have a dog and a parrot. My problem was, "cage the parrots, we have a new fun thing we're interested in!" My grandmother has cats (first) and then got her Amazon ( a rescue who had nowhere else to go). Her cats are trained to not even go *near* the parrot. They are VERY well trained. But would she leave them alone together? Not on your life. You just never know - even if it's 99.99999 percent certain that the other animal won't hurt the parrot - if you cherish your parrot - it's not worth it.
By
Anonymous, at 11:14 AM
I appreciate all the concern about the picture with my parrots on the floor in the above picture.
But I am offended that some people read my blog posts and decide to preach to me like they know everything, and that I know nothing, and judge how I treat my birds from one picture.
Let me clear things up for you who seem to think that me getting this puppy means that my birds will forever be enslaved to live in a cage.
First off, my birds have a bird room, seperate from the dog room, with windows and multiple trees and stands to play on, with toys being constantly rotated.
The birds are free to fly in these rooms, getting tons of excercise and play time.
And for those reading this who've think you shouldn't keep parrots on the floor because it scares them. You're right...
... which is why my parrots don't stay on the floor. I put the cage on the floor to introduce the dog to the bird in a safe environment. I monitored my birds body language to make sure he wasn't upset, and as the picture shows, my foot is in the screen and I'm right there monitoring the situation... actually clicking the puppy for remaining calm.
It's not like I'm trying to teach the puppy to play with the birds I just want him to not attack the cages. And for the person who mentioned that accidents happen with birds and dog's you're right, and I don't advise doing so unless with a highly trained dog and bird that respect eachother, and even then it's still probably not a good idea.
I guess I didn't realize I'd have to defend myself so much with the above picture.
As for the hundreds of others who've emailed me saying how excited you are about the new puppy, Thank You, I'm excited too!
As for the people not excited about the puppy, I hope this clears up the misconceptions. If not, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Happy New Years,
Chet Womach
http://www.birdtricks.com
By
Chet Womach, at 5:55 PM
Chet, Congrats on your new puppy!. I almost purchased a baby Yorkie the other day and have 2 Greys.
One a personal note: (those who are against birds/other animals)
I believe that dogs, cats and other animals can live together. HOWEVER, it is the human that must realize that dogs , cats and other animals have natural instincts which we cannot possibly perdict, no matter how well our animals are trained. We should never take forgranted that accidents can happen even to the best and most observant parrot owner.
I believe that Chet's set up is perfect for a situation where there are other animals and it's one that I have taken into practise myself many years ago with my Greys and my dogs. The birds have a bird room, safe, free flight, all toys in the world, heck, they even have their own tv and videos and they are UNCAGED all the time. Caged only at night for bed, and when I am out of the house. Otherwise, it's a parrot paradise for them. My dogs have that same little world on the other end of the house. The dogs cannot get into the bird room and visa versa. When a bird leaves the bird room, the dog is almost always outside, and or by my husbands side. We've had great movie nights with the birds on the back of the couch and dogs sleeping on their beds on the floor.
Strict safe havens, and watchful , responsible humans is the key. Just don't ever put your animals, (dogs, cats, birds) in a situation to hurt or injure on another, no matter how much YOU think you can trust them.
I've been doing this safely for 12 years, and safely ONLY because I never take forgranted for one minute the natural instincts of my pets. It's up to me to protect them.
So Chet, Enjoy the new puppy and enjoy your beloved parrots.
Laura
By
Anonymous, at 6:32 PM
But I am offended that some people read my blog posts and decide to preach to me like they know everything, and that I know nothing, and judge how I treat my birds from one picture.
I'm sure this comment is directed at me, and Chet, in your line of business, offering advice about parrot training, I'm surprised you are so thin-skinned. You are offended? People aren't allowed to disagree with you? The world of parrots as pets is not an absolute - we as parrot owners need to discuss and debate and try things. We need to learn from each other. We need to disagree! Obviously we need to do so in a respectful way - no name calling, for an example. I don't think in any of my posts here I have been disrespectful - only in DISAGREEMENT. I'm surprised you are offended when someone disagrees with you.
As for 'preaching' to you - I was just expressing my opinion. I now know that you don't accept disagreement. We MUST listen to what Chet says, and if you disagree, he'll be offended. Come on Chet, do you *really* think my posts anywhere said or implied that *I* know everything and you know nothing? Really? Or are you just annoyed that someone disagreed with you on something? As I stated in my first posts - "I've always enjoyed your products and newsletters -
but I disagree with you here." That is unacceptable? Really? I also said that the first post about the dog upset ME. Is that not valid?
I hope it's not the case that YOU and YOU alone are the teacher, and we are your STUDENTS only, and if we disagree on one thing, you are offended and say that we "think we know it all and you know nothing". I really don't think that's the case.
Also, keeping other animals together with parrots is an important topic - don't you think this started some debate and discussion? Isn't that a GOOD thing, even if we disagree?
Michele
By
Anonymous, at 6:06 AM
Chet,
Who would know that getting a puppy would cause so much debate. We have three parrots a caique, quaker (rescued) and an african grey (rescued). We ended up bringing home an 8 week old yellow lab puppy 2 months after taking in the grey. Three years later everyone is doing very well. Our typical evening consists of watching tv in the living room birds on their perch or us and the dog roaming around. The dog has proven easier to train then the birds... so with your knowledge I'm sure you will do fine. First the puppy learned appropriate behavior around the cage...not jumping up. When we started introducing the puppy to the birds outside of their cage, the puppy was muzzled and on a leash. We did not clicker train but used verbal commands and treats as needed. After weeks of training we were able to remove the leash and just leave the muzzle on. As more time went on we were able to take the muzzle off (at times had the leash back on but always right next to the puppy). Our puppy learned "close your mouth" and as soon as she opened it the muzzle would go back on. Now our puppy is 3 years old and 65 pounds. She will turn her head away from the birds to yawn. On rare occasions, one of the birds will get spooked and jump off the perch to the floor the dogs only action is to come to us or stay where she is until we get the bird. The birds have landed close to her on the floor and she will nose them gently. One more thing...we did crate train our puppy so at any time we could not give her 100% of our attention she was in her crate and our house ran like usual. Accidents can happen to anyone at anytime, you just do all you can to have well trained pets that are closely supervised. Our biggest challenge is the caique loves the dog and constanly wants to be closer to her with absoutely no fear. At times, we have children in our home...I worry more about the birds and kids hurting each other. We are always right there to be one step ahead of what's happening or to quickly intervene if needed. We are going to have these birds for decades and I'm sure there will be many more pets that will pass through our home and everyone will be trained.
We purchased a cagesbydesign cage for the grey and caique over the summer. It is a large cage with a divider in the middle to separate each birds side. It took our grey about two weeks before she was completely moved in (she is not very fond of change). We really like having the clear plexiglass for the front and back as it significantly reduces the mess outside the cage from fruit being tossed. Drawbacks are the clip that holds the grate in place does not allow one of the doors to open if it is hooked in place, the plexi doors were difficult to slide because there is nothing to push/grab so we added a self-adhesive silicone bumper (small bumper like you would put inside a cabinet door so that it doesn't bang close), grate and tray do not have handles and can be a little difficult to pull out (we purchased small handles that we are going to try and mount) and cleaning is not as easy as I had hoped but not anymore difficult than their old cages. Right after we ordered our cage they redesigned their line, so some of the issues may have been resolved. Costumer service was fine. We returned some items without any problems. Overall, we are pleased with the cage and like the look of it. The birds seem happy... the grey is not as fearful of new toys and we feel it is because she is so close to the caique and sees him constantly accepting new toys. The stainless will not rust like our old cages and we have the bottom case to store the food, extra toys and covers so it looks very neat. Our birds get quite a bit of natural sunlight so we did not purchase the hood with full spectrum lighting, but it can always be added in the future if we need it.
Good luck with the cage and with the new puppy. I'm more than willing to share more stories and pictures (three years of Christmas cards with the dog and birds) if you are interested.
Stacey
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stacey, at 8:13 PM
i think you should get a new bird cage. but when you do put the bird cage on a tall table where the dog cant get into the bird cage . and thats weird that a dog is in the bird cage. i thought that was cats not dogs. lol.
Ashley
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Anonymous, at 5:47 PM
Do NOT ORDER with these people, I have tried in vail to stop all the orders, but they keep on sending me video's and charging my account. I WANT THEM TO STOP!!!!
gitchy@bellsouth.net
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Anonymous, at 3:22 PM
Chet,
WHAT A BEAUTIFUL DOG I LOVE IT ALMOST AS MUCH AS I LOVE YOU AND POKEMON. YU-GI-OH IS PRETTY HIGH UP THERE TOO. PEACE
YOURS very truly your sexy,
Kevin Merola
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Anonymous, at 8:21 AM
doglover says:
hi! i just love your dog, he/ shes so cute and im using the second pic for my msn! thx for posting!
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dingy.down.dog, at 6:30 PM
I think that your dog is so cute! My Grandmother is looking for a dog nd she wishes that she could find one and cute as your dog!
By
Anonymous, at 1:38 PM
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